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Reader Reaction: Your Comments on Heated Issue 2 Debate

A round-up of your thoughts on Ohio's Issue 2, which Patch will be covering through the November vote

 

The November election is a little more than a month away, and already Ohioans are clamoring at the chance to vote yes or no on Issue 2, also known as Senate Bill 5. The issue restricts collective bargaining rights for the state's roughly 360,000 public-sector employees. Not one Democrat voted for the bill when it passed the GOP-controlled legislature in March.

We ran our first article on Ohio's Issue 2 on Sept. 17, and ever since, Patch readers have been debating the pros and cons.

We've received hundreds of comments, but here's a sample of some of the viewpoints our readers have been discussing.

Several people said they won't vote for Issue 2 because they say it will raise taxes, to which several commenters responded:

Carol Lara says: What makes you think that your taxes won't be going up? This is a bill to break the unions. They never promised that it will keep your taxes from going up. When I began teaching in the 60's, our salaries put us in the lower class financially. Nearly all of us came from middle class backgrounds. After teaching for 40 years, I was receiving a respectable salary thanks to union bargaining over the years. When I began teaching there was a nationwide severe shortage of teachers. If you reduce the total package for a teacher's salary, who is going to go through those 5 years of college with so little incentive to receive an income commesurate with their abilities?

Linda UmBayemake says: Your taxes are going to go up reqardless (sic) at least with Issue 2 we protect those we need the most Police, Firefighters and Teachers (who are grossly underpaid, despite what someone said about $51.00 an hour) VOTE NO ON ISSUE 2.

Others want Issue 2 to pass because they say it will give power back to employers.

Robin Shannon says: I'm voting to uphold SB5. The employees of the state of Ohio have no right to hold me hostage, and SB5 begins to restore balance to the employer/employee relationship.

In response, Morna Konitsky says: ...This will take away rights of not only firefighters, police and teachers, but also office workers and road crews and building custodians (just to name a few). Most of these workers had to face the economic realities of the recession back when the recesson started. It is untrue that public employees do not contribute to their pensions or healthcare costs. There are are also quite a few who have negotiated to pay more than the percentages quoted in the tv ads.

Others are simply looking for more information and asking questions before they vote:

Noah Webster says: If you have a position please offer some facts and support your argument. Take for example the claim by one side that SB5 is an attempt to destroy the middle-class and will result in minimum wages. Please explain how SB5 causes that to happen ? Where can we find those provisions in SB5 ? Make your case in an intelligent and civil manner.

Earl Elevant answers: SB 5 doesn't prescribe wages. It allows cities to take at will from their employees. There is no unbiased third party protection from them doing this. Safety forces can't even strike like the private sector can, should they not like the terms of employment. It's illegal. Did you know that's why collective bargaining was instituted in the first place? A neutral third-party was given in exchange for the ability to strike. Now, they're taking the neutral third-party without giving back the ability to strike. Sound fair to you? Sounds like it's eliminating the rights of the workers and the middle class to me.

Victor Mooney also responded: ...Keep in mind that the salary is only the beginning---in many districts the teachers pay nothing toward their retirement and health care----issue 2 would require that they pay 15% of their health care and 10% toward their pension. about 90% of the private sector would only dream about such low costs. In the private sector, failure to make a profit results in layoffs, or closure, while with public employees simply roll out the banners and propaganda machine, talk poor, and demand the taxpayer fork over---of course its for the children, nothing selfish here. The same with policemen and firefighters, they are not being asked to take cuts in salary or benefits, only that fairness be introduced to the argument. Issue 2[SB5} is the fair answer.

Related articles:

Issue 2 Vote: Opponents, Supporters of SB5 Kick Off Campaigns

Issue 2: Ohio Public Unions Try to Overturn SB5 at the Ballot Box

Senate Bill 5: What It Is, And Isn't

Issue 2 Vote Follows Similar Debates in Wisconsin and New Jersey

New Poll Shows Support Growing for SB5, Kasich

Related Topics: Collective Bargaining, Elections, SB 5, issue 2, and senate bill 5
What do you think? Tell us in the comments.

Robin Anderson

10:04 am on Friday, September 30, 2011

While this venue for open debate is quite appreciated, why haven't the reporters for the Patch attempted to do any "in depth" reporting on this issue? It would help determine, based on facts, exactly whom this legislation(SB-5) is targeting and, perhaps, reveal why. I know most folk aren't interested in how the sausage is made, but there's been no attempt by Patch to inform the public as to the functions/benefits(?) of the State Employee Relations Bureau(SERB), especially it's major role in the adjudication of disputes arising from grievances, Unfair Labor Practices, or it's impartial role in the binding arbitration process...for all public employees, non-union and union. Only through a more detailed understanding of the gamut of public employees and their bargaining units can any credible comparison against "the private sector" workforce be made.

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Megan Rozsa

2:23 pm on Friday, September 30, 2011

Hi Robin,
Thanks for your comment. This is only just the beginning of our Issue 2/SB5 coverage, so I can assure you there's much more to come. I will pass your queries along to the main reporter on this issue. His name is Chris Mazzolini, and he is the editor of the Solon Patch. If you have any other questions, please email him at christopher.mazzolini@patch.com. Thank you for your comments and for reading Patch.

Megan Rozsa

Donald R. Thompson

10:44 am on Friday, September 30, 2011

And there are over 4000 contracts...good luck with that....consider only 8% go to fact finding and of that 8% only 3% go to full binding arbitration. The reality is that both sides walk away without getting what they asked for unless the other side is off the charts in what they are asking for.

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Robin Anderson

12:17 pm on Friday, September 30, 2011

Absolutely...and said statistics, if true, only belie some stated opinions that "the unions" in general have been dominating negotiations with management in some untoward, political way.

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James Thomas

12:54 pm on Friday, September 30, 2011

One possibility you may not be accounting for;
If only 8% of contracts go to fact finding how many of them flew through because there was no effective taxpayer representation at the table. What if the negotiating officials involved were either politically indebted to one side or politically alligned with that side or both? Everyone knows anecdotally that this is a possibility but could it be determined from the contracts without a full blown legal investigation?

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Donald R. Thompson

1:03 pm on Friday, September 30, 2011

That's quite the extremist conspiracy theory y'all are trotting out here...to believe your claim the city officials, city labor lawyers, union members, union lawyers, all of the independant fact finders/arbitrators are conspiring to screw the taxpaying public. And the LAPD set OJ up also

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James Thomas

3:17 pm on Friday, September 30, 2011

Donald R.,
hardly conspiritoral and definitely not extreme because I have seen it happen and have discussed this with others that have as well. It is not a conspiracy if it is legal, which happens most when Union approved Board Members get legally elected with union support, they then support the unions. Do not tell me that Community Safety Forces have no influence on municipal elections because I have seen proof that they do in my town. If the Council Memebers and City Leadership owe their elections to the goodwill of the unions then they will certainly support them. The cases I inquire about never make it to the fact finders/arbiters because negotiations are successfully concluded. Union Lawyers and Members are expected to do the best for themselves. City Labor Lawyers follow their leadership lead. So yes, you have Politicians screwing the taxpayer. This suprises you?

Robin Anderson

12:41 pm on Friday, September 30, 2011

For example, re the "exorbitant pension benefits" so readily gained through public employment, check a recent PD Politifact Ohio article: <http://www.politifact.com/ohio/statements/2011/sep/27/john-kasich/gov-john-kasich-says-leadership-public-unions-unwi/>..."We looked further and found Toledo was not unique. In Columbus, the Dispatch has reported, city government pays more than 80 percent of the employee pension share, "a benefit unduplicated elsewhere in Ohio on such a large scale," and pays the entire share for almost two-thirds of city workers.

But the story is different for workers for Franklin County, of which Columbus is the county seat. Almost 90 percent of Franklin County workers pay their own entire pension share, the Dispatch found. Columbus schools pick up the superintendent's pension contribution, but not those of teachers and staff members."...

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Donald R. Thompson

1:08 pm on Friday, September 30, 2011

The only pension reform contained is Sb5 is abolition of the pickup "some" units have negotiated....the great majority do not get anything picked up and pay the full 10%. Some places like Chagrin Falls did away with the full 10% pickup and replaced it with a 7.75% raise so employees would not be negatively effected....90% of employers WOULD NOT do this....Only a select few work in Chagrin Falls Village.

william

4:48 pm on Friday, September 30, 2011

James you are making some good points. Every mayor and poplitician wants to "screw " the voters. I have never met a politician who cared about what the voters thought.

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James Thomas

5:39 pm on Friday, September 30, 2011

William,
you don't know the politicians I know. I'm in the 42nd Ohio Cong. Dist. and worked hard to get my candidate in and the incumbant out. I can attest that it was due to policy differences without a hint of "s" the taxpayers on either side. Contact your local Rep. Talk to them. If then they seem to not deserve your support for either policy or character differences, work to oust them. I did, it was good.
Don't lump all of them together, find out which ones deserve your ire and act on it.

william

6:50 pm on Friday, September 30, 2011

James i was being sarcastic. I really dont think politicians want to screw the people who give them their jobs. The people they need to vote them in to keep their jobs.

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James Thomas

9:49 pm on Friday, September 30, 2011

Sorry I wasn't quick enough on that,
You're correct that politicians do cater to "them as brought them to the dance". But sometimes the "them" does happen to be us. Sometimes.

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Dave D

12:09 pm on Saturday, October 1, 2011

The real travesty here is, the unions contribute to the lawmakers campaign. Now why would they do that?

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Michelle B

9:55 pm on Saturday, October 1, 2011

Dave D, what do you think about the corporate elite who contribute to the campaigns of politicians...who then give these same corporations large tax breaks? These same corporate elite-backed politicians also promote policies that, for example, crush public education while increasing public (i.e., taxpayer) funding for privately owned charter schools (owned by the same corporate elite)? To me THAT'S a travesty...that these rich, rich people are destroying free public education and disrespecting our brave firefighters and police officers. Not cool.

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Jake Racketch

12:04 pm on Wednesday, October 26, 2011

to Dave D... for the same reason the wealthiest 1% contribute to the republican party.

Donald R. Thompson

8:38 pm on Friday, September 30, 2011

Real tough high corruption area there James...
Hudson
Stow
Silver Lake
Munroe Falls
Cuyahoga Falls (except portion surrounded by
Akron wards 1 and 8)
43

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James Thomas

9:50 pm on Friday, September 30, 2011

Donald R.,
you say this like it's a bad thing. I'd bet there are a lot of Cuyahoga County voters who would like to have my problem.

Molly

6:59 am on Saturday, October 1, 2011

This bill has changed somewhat since it was introduced. Can the Patch publish a concise rundown of what is included in the legislation? I read the initial bill from cover to cover, but I believe some things have been modified.

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Jean Dubail

9:35 am on Saturday, October 1, 2011

Molly, here's a quick rundown of the main provisions: http://patch.com/A-mn0l

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Donald R. Thompson

1:36 pm on Saturday, October 1, 2011

the absolute worst thing about Issue 2/SB5 is the elimination of binding arbitration by an UNBIASED 3rd party mediator which is for safety forces. I agree teachers should not strike so they should also have binding arbitration as the settlement procedure for an IMPASSE

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Donald R. Thompson

1:38 pm on Saturday, October 1, 2011

SB5 / Issue 2 gives TOTAL control of all things negotiated to the government without 3rd party mediation permitted.

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Jack Musser

9:41 pm on Saturday, October 1, 2011

What is the problem??? Dick Celeste passed this in 1983 with his total control of
Ohio's government, passed this for the unions.... Our now Governor did NOT take everything away that Celeste gave the unions, just part of it... Our leaders in government must have some say on how much the raises are!!!!

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Robin Anderson

12:08 pm on Monday, October 3, 2011

By "leaders", do you mean the local school boards who've done anything but act like "management" does in the private sector? By "leaders" do you mean the likes of the Akron Mayor/City Council who shoveled millions of dollars down the money pit known as Akron's waste management/heat generating facility...watching as the "management" they hired to run that facility ran it into bankruptcy? We won't go into the billable hours spent in their wrong-headed fight against EPA sewer regulations here, eh? Then you've got the good Mayor/City Council of Cuyahoga Falls who decided to spend at least 5 times more of the taxpayers' money to purchase the former State Road Shopping Center than any private sector enterprise was willing to pay for either Rolling Acres Mall or Midway Plaza. Who knows what any private enterprise would have bid on that parcel of land, our good leaders were so quick to play the eminent domain card as a threat.

jim

6:07 am on Sunday, October 9, 2011

This issue will be one of emotions vs. facts.

The facts are the union compensation packages is unjustifiably too high compared to the private sector. The bank breaking statistical trend in these ever escalating union costs is freighting if you look at the data. Keeping the modest SB-5 changes through a yes vote on issue 2 is a no brainer if you look at the situation clearly.

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Donald R. Thompson

12:58 pm on Sunday, October 9, 2011

The blame for out of control health care costs lay solely on the shoulders of the PRIVATE SECTOR HEALTH CARE MONOPOLY

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Harry H.

4:26 pm on Sunday, October 9, 2011

Yes the facts are clear. The private sector should be keeping up but are being raked over the coals by the elite. CEO's get millions and there is somehow not enough for raises. Subjecting the public sector to the same does not help the private sector. You skew the details and cover facts with lies. If issue 2 passes it pave the way for the collapse of unions, then some quick deregulation and the rich will continue to prosper while they continue to buy politicians to do their bidding. You are suggesting America go in the wrong direction. toward an income/wealth gap the size of the grand canyon!

jim

6:48 am on Wednesday, October 26, 2011

I am sick of the argument that CEOs and pro sports people are making this much; therefore public unions deserve to abuse the public. Two wrongs do not make a right!

Issue two is a very modest trimming of the extreme outer edges of these union contracts. Vote yes on issue #2 Ohio or go broke.

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jim

6:56 am on Wednesday, October 26, 2011

Comments like "elimination of binding arbitration" are simply false alarmist BS.

The contract bargaining system is unchanged with issue 2/5 except that in the end, the arbitrator MUST consider the finances of the employer side. The system we have now lets the arbitrator bless union contract increases when the employer (school, city, state) is broke and in bankruptcy.

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Donald R. Thompson

10:25 am on Wednesday, October 26, 2011

Wrong all day long ...there is no binding arbitration in issue 2 as the remedy for impasse and you know it , impasse under issue 2 will be 100% given to by CITY COUNCIL (or the local govt. body...county commisioners etc.)....EVERY TIME.

The fact finder (different statutory job than an arbitrator) will be spinning their wheels because in the end the CITY gets to pick THEIR OWN OFFER 100% OF THE TIME. Either you cannot comprehend the language of issue 2 or your just LYING

Donald R. Thompson

10:32 am on Wednesday, October 26, 2011

Straight from the PD's analysis of the BILL: Relevant legislative body, such as city council chooses one side's proposal. Employer's last offer takes effect automatically if legislators cannot decide.

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Donald R. Thompson

10:32 am on Wednesday, October 26, 2011

Therefore BINDING ARBITRATION IS GONE!!!!

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Donald R. Thompson

10:42 am on Wednesday, October 26, 2011

FROM 4117 THE CURRENT LAW PASSED IN 1983 and IN FORCE CURRENTLY, PAY SPECIAL ATTENTION TO (c):

(6) The conciliator shall hear testimony from the parties and provide for a written record to be made of all statements at the hearing. The board shall submit for inclusion in the record and for consideration by the conciliator the written report and recommendation of the fact-finders.

(7) After hearing, the conciliator shall resolve the dispute between the parties by selecting, on an issue-by-issue basis, from between each of the party’s final settlement offers, taking into consideration the following:

(a) Past collectively bargained agreements, if any, between the parties;

(b) Comparison of the issues submitted to final offer settlement relative to the employees in the bargaining unit involved with those issues related to other public and private employees doing comparable work, giving consideration to factors peculiar to the area and classification involved;

(c) The interests and welfare of the public, the ability of the public employer to finance and administer the issues proposed, and the effect of the adjustments on the normal standard of public service;

PAY SPECIAL ATTENTION TO (c)

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